Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District
Trial transcript: Day 20 (November 3), AM Session, Part 2
THE COURT: All right, we'll take the next witness by the defense.
MR. GILLEN: Thank you, Your Honor. The defense calls Robert Linker.
ROBERT LINKER, called as a witness on behalf of the defendants, having been duly sworn or affirmed according to law, testified as follows:
THE DEPUTY CLERK: If you can state your name and spell your name for the record.
THE WITNESS: Robert Linker. R-O-B-E-R-T, middle initial S, L-I-N-K-E-R.
MR. GILLEN: Your Honor, I would request permission to lead the witness with respect to preliminary matters for the purpose of establishing that his interests are adverse such that leading questions are appropriate.
MR. WALCZAK: We're going to object to him taking Mr. Linger as adverse. We don't object to him doing some preliminary inquiry on that.
MR. GILLEN: Perhaps more background, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yeah, because I'm inclined to allow leading, given the time constraints we have. But your objection goes to calling him as an adverse witness?
MR. WALCZAK: He -- under Rule 611(c), Your Honor, I don't believe that he fits the definition of an adverse or a hostile witness in this case. I mean he is actually employed by the defendants in this case.
THE COURT: All right. Why don't you elaborate, Mr. Gillen?
MR. GILLEN: Certainly, Your Honor. Mr. Linker is a teacher. He is indeed employed by Dover Area School District. As an employee of the school district he has a contractual duty to implement the policies that are enacted by the board.
In this case he and his colleagues in the science department have failed to do so. They have refused to read the statement called for by the curriculum policy. They have refused to distribute letters and the opt-out form, which they were required to distribute in connection with the implementation of the policy by the administration. They have retained counsel to represent them in their discussions with the administration due to threats or fear of liability both to third parties and from the district in connection with the implementation of this policy. Under those circumstances, Your Honor, I fail to see how he cannot be deemed adverse.
MR. WALCZAK: Your Honor, the hiring of counsel by the teachers is true. The same limitations that was put on the defense has been put on plaintiffs counsel. I have never met Mr. Linker. I've never spoken to Mr. Linker before today. I was introduced shortly before the trial. Clearly not an adverse party as that term is used under 611(c).
MR. GILLEN: Not so.
THE COURT: Well, wait, that's in the -- that's in the disjunctive. He doesn't have to be adverse. He can be hostile. He could be a witness identified with an adverse party.
MR. GILLEN: Precisely, Your Honor. And the teachers have cooperated with the plaintiffs in a number of matters. They've met with them.
THE COURT: Let me ask you, what's the harm?
MR. WALCZAK: Your Honor, I'm not sure where he's going with that, but part of the --
THE COURT: Well, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to let him lead for the apparently narrow purposes as it relates to the implementation of the policy, because we're going to move along here. I'll hear your objections, though, and -- but I will allow the leading questions -- let me ask you this. Are you indicating that the witness was not disclosed?
MR. WALCZAK: No, the witness was disclosed. It was not disclosed to us until this morning when we walked into court that they were going to call him as if on cross.
I mean I did not meet with Mr. Linker. Had I known that they were going to call him as if on cross we might have prepared this case differently. The other point I would just like to make in terms of -- I think it's clear that certainly that three part test under the last sentence of 611(c) is in the disjunctive. He -- and clearly it's not an adverse party or witness identified with an adverse party. The question is whether he's a hostile. He was deposed, Your Honor, in this case.
THE COURT: The hostile witness is a judgment I've got to make, and I don't know, and that's why I say, let's defer, and if it appears that he's not, I'll hear a renewed objection. But let's keep moving.
MR. WALCZAK: Just note my objection.
THE COURT: I note your objection. We'll overrule your objection at this time. You may renew your objection if circumstances warrant during the examination. And Mr. Gillen, you may proceed.
MR. GILLEN: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q Mr. Linker, I just want to establish a few facts here as we get started. You are an employee of Dover Area School District?
A Correct.
Q As an employee you have a contractual duty to implement the policies of the school district?
A Correct.
Q In this case you have refused to implement the curriculum change enacted by the board on October 18, 2004, correct?
A Correct.
Q You have refused to read the statement called for by the curriculum policy, correct?
A Correct.
Q You have refused to distribute letters and opt-out forms that the administration called for to be distributed in connection with the implementation of the curriculum policy, correct?
A Correct.
Q You have retained counsel to represent you in connection with this matter?
A Correct.
Q You have retained that counsel to represent you, vis-a-vis the administration and school board?
A Correct.
Q And you have retained counsel to represent you here in connection with your testimony in this case, correct?
A Correct.
Q Mr. Linker, you attended a board meeting in the fall of 2003 with Alan Bonsell which pertained to the presentation of evolutionary theory in schools at Dover?
A It wasn't a board meeting.
Q A board curriculum committee meeting?
A In -- in an actual room.
Q Yes.
A Correct.
Q And during that meeting you described how you presented evolutionary theory to the students.
A Actually Jenn Miller was our spokesmen for that.
Q Jenn -- Jenn did do some description, but so did you, correct?
MR. WALCZAK: Your Honor, I am going to renew my objection to leading questions here.
THE COURT: Overruled at this time.
Q Mrs. Miller did do the bulk of the talking, but so did you, Mr. Miller -- I mean Mr. Linker, correct?
A At that meeting I was asked if I taught it the same way, and I said yes.
Q Okay. And you also provided some information about how you present evolutionary theory, correct?
A Not at that particular meeting.
Q Well, did you indicate that you presented evolutionary theory in a manner similar to Jenn Miller?
A Yes.
Q You described how you started out teaching evolutionary theory, you took the chalkboard and you drew a line down the middle, correct?
A Not at this meeting. The meeting that I drew the line down, that was with Mr. Baksa. Mr. Bonsell was not present at that one.
Q Okay.
MR. GILLEN: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. GILLEN: Thank you.
MR. ROTHSCHILD: Your Honor, for the record, Mr. Linker's counsel is going to join us at counsel table.
THE COURT: All right. I was going to mention that, and I think that's a good idea. Why don't you enter your appearance for the record.
MS. PENNY: Thank you, Your Honor. My name is Jane Penny. I'm from the law firm of Killian and Gephart.
THE COURT: All right, nice to see you. We'll note your appearance and allow you to interject any objections or comments on the record that you want to.
MS. PENNY: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. GILLEN: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q Mr. Linker, I would ask you to direct your attention to page 17 of your deposition, line 21. As a preliminary matter I'd ask you, do you recall that I took your deposition on June 10th, 2005?
A Page 17?
Q Yes, line 21.
A Okay.
Q Okay. And before we go further, Mr. Linker, I would ask you, do you remember that I took your deposition on June 10th, 2005?
A Yes.
Q And prior -- as the deposition began you were placed under oath?
A Correct.
Q Do you recall that? And you had a duty to tell the truth, correct?
A Correct.
Q And you understood that?
A Yes.
Q And you did so?
A Yes.
Q Okay. I'd ask you to look at line 21. And you'll see there is a question there, "How about, let's look at the fall of 2003; do you remember a meeting with Mr. Bonsell." Do you remember your answer?
A Yes.
Q And there you indicate that the meeting did occur, correct?
A Correct.
Q And is that the meeting in which you described how you taught evolutionary theory?
A That was the meeting with Mr. Bonsell. That was the meeting that Jenn was our -- Jenn Miller was our spokesperson. And how I taught evolutionary theory, more specifically was with Mr. Baksa.
Q Okay. I'd ask you to direct your attention to line -- page 19, line 17. If you look at line 14 you'll see I asked you this question. "I remember more so the meeting that Mr. Bonsell -- like the people sitting around and I can believe." That was your answer, correct?
A Correct.
Q If you look beneath that I asked you a question, "Tell me what you can, in brief, about what you told Mr. Baksa, about the way you presented evolutionary theory." And you continued to answer.
Isn't that with reference to the meeting with Mr. Bonsell?
A I didn't -- the meeting with Mr. Bonsell I did not tell anything about dividing the chalkboard.
Q Okay, then let's talk about the meeting with Mr. Baksa.
During that meeting you told Mr. Baksa that at the beginning of your presentation of evolutionary theory you drew a line down the middle of the board, correct?
A Correct.
Q And you wrote evolution on one side, correct?
A Correct.
Q On the other side you wrote creationism, correct?
A Correct.
Q And you started out saying that creationism was based on religion and writings in the Bible, correct?
A Correct.
Q And you said you were not going to talk about creationism because you were not an expert in it, correct?
A Correct.
Q You said your training was on the other side of the board, in science, correct?
A Correct.
Q You said on this side were facts based on science, the fossil record, DNA and the like, correct?
A Correct.
Q The teachers at Dover never taught origins of life, correct?
A Correct.
Q And Bert Spahr was at this meeting with Mr. Bonsell, correct?
A Correct.
Q And she brought a stack of legal papers relating to the discussion with Mr. Bonsell?
A Correct.
Q And those related to the presentation of evolutionary theory, correct?
A Yes.
Q And the presentation of creationism, correct?
A Correct.
Q During the meeting with Mr. Bonsell he did not criticize your teaching method?
A No.
Q When you left the meeting you felt that his concerns had been addressed?
A Correct.
Q You felt that nothing would result from the meeting?
A Correct.
Q From the end of 2003, from that meeting, in the fall, through the end of 2003, you had no discussions with anyone in the administration about the presentation of evolutionary theory, correct?
A Correct.
Q Later on, around June of 2004, you remember being asked to review a video, correct?
A Yes.
Q And you believe Mr. Baksa provided that video to you?
A Correct.
Q Personally you wanted to watch the video because it talked about gaps in the theory of evolution with many prominent scientists, correct?
A Correct.
Q It went through all the gaps in evolutionary theory as you knew them, correct?
A That was the, truthfully, it was the first time I saw a lot of gaps.
Q Okay. Some of the gaps were gaps you actually taught about, correct?
A I never taught gaps, but the gaps that they talked about were the topics that I taught in class.
Q Okay. And you thought it was neat to get the other side of the story when you viewed this video, correct?
A Correct.
Q You left -- you left speaking to your colleagues and indicating that the video was good?
A Correct.
Q With reference to the curriculum change, when we speak about the note that says origins of life are not taught, you knew that the teachers didn't teach origins of life, correct?
A Correct.
Q You recognize that intelligent design addressed the origins of life, such that the note would prohibit the teaching of intelligent design, correct?
A Correct.
Q When the curriculum change was being voted on, your thought was that you would spend zero days teaching intelligent design, correct?
A Correct.
Q You recognized you weren't an expert on intelligent design, so you believed you couldn't teach it, correct?
A Correct.
Q You had a concern about being sued by a parent, correct?
A Correct.
Q You asked the administration, the teachers -- including you, the teachers including you, asked the administration to tell them what they were supposed to do about implementation of the curriculum change, correct?
A Correct.
Q When you drew that line down the middle of the board and put creationism, and you mentioned that to students, did you know that creationism, teaching creationism, was against the law?
A Correct.
Q Did you believe that you were doing something illegal?
A No.
MR. GILLEN: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Gillen.
Q Good morning, Mr. Linker.
A Good morning.
Q You've been teaching biology at Dover Area School District for a long time now?
A Correct.
Q How long have you been teaching?
A This is my twelfth year.
Q And you've been teaching evolution as part of that biology?
A Correct.
Q And you have taught for many years now with Jenn Miller?
A Correct.
Q Rob Eshbach?
A Yes.
Q Now, prior to the fall of 2003, had any administrator, any Dover Area School District administrator, questioned you about how you teach evolution?
A No.
Q Had any board member ever questioned you about how you teach or present evolution?
A No.
Q Had any board member or administrator questioned you about how you teach anything in biology?
A No.
Q Had you ever met with a board member prior to the fall of 2003?
A No.
Q Now, besides being a biology teacher, are you involved in other activities with the school district?
A Yes, I'm the head wrestling coach.
Q Are you involved in other athletic endeavors or coaching endeavors in the township?
A Yeah, I volunteer for football for littler kids.
Q So is it fair to say that you don't spend all of your time thinking about or teaching biology?
A Correct.
Q Now, I want to turn to the fall of 2003, and I want to clarify just a little bit about the chronology of what happened at that time. Now, you had two meetings about evolution that fall?
A Correct.
Q And one of them was with Mr. Baksa?
A Correct.
Q And another one was with Mr. Baksa and Mr. Bonsell?
A And a lot of other people.
Q Let's take the one with Mr. Baksa first. Do you remember when that meeting occurred?
A No, I'm not real good on dates.
Q Well -- and I can appreciate that, because I have exactly the same problem. Let's see if we can narrow it down. Was it while school was in session?
A Yes.
Q So was it before wrestling started?
A I'm saying yes because I was available.
Q So September or October of 2003?
A Yes.
Q And how did you find out about this meeting, do you remember?
A Almost all meetings, it was either e-mailed to me or my department head would tell us we have to have a meeting, or -- I'm not sure in this meeting, it could have been an in-service day.
Q So you don't remember how -- do you remember going into the meeting whether you knew what the purpose of the meeting was?
A I can't remember that.
Q And do you remember where the meeting took place?
A Probably one of our classrooms.
Q And do you remember who was at the meeting?
A I know Jenn Miller was there, and I'm pretty sure my department head, Bert Spahr, was there.
Q And was anybody there from the administration?
A Just Mr. Baksa.
Q And there was no board members at this meeting?
A No.
Q And do you remember Mr. Baksa taking charge of the meeting?
A Yes.
Q And do you remember what he was curious about or him telling you why you were meeting?
A He just wanted to know some information on how we taught the subject of evolution.
Q Now, biology consists of a lot of different subjects, correct?
A Correct.
Q I mean, there's a lot of different theories that you teach as part of biology?
A Correct.
Q And the only one he was concerned about was evolution.
A Yes.
Q And what kind of questions did he ask you?
A He was -- just asked how we presented it. I had no problem telling him.
Q And so did you respond -- did you tell him how you presented it?
A Yes.
Q We'll come back in a little bit and talk about how you presented it.
Did other teachers also explain how they presented it?
A Yes.
Q Now, you then had a second meeting that fall with Mr. Bonsell.
A Correct.
Q Do you remember in relation to this first meeting, when that meeting with Mr. Bonsell was?
A I would say it was a short time afterwards, a week, two weeks.
Q And do you remember how you found out about the meeting?
A I remember this one was during the school day, so that would have probably came from my department head. It was during second period.
Q And why is it that you remember it was during the school day?
A I have a prep period second period, and if I had duty time, I would have had to get somebody to cover. I remember one of the teachers, Leslie Prall, was actually in class during that -- they had to get somebody to cover for her.
Q So this meeting was so important that you were pulled out of class -- your regular classroom duties?
A Well, it was prep period for me so --
Q But another teacher was actually pulled out --
A Yes.
Q And Ms. Prall is a biology teacher?
A Correct.
Q And had you gotten warning of this meeting in advance?
A Warning for days, no. I think I got it pretty quick, maybe the day before, maybe the morning.
Q And where was this meeting, do you remember?
A It was in the office, the principal's -- one of the conference rooms of the principal's office.
Q Do you remember who was at that meeting?
A I know Jenn Miller was present, she was beside me; Mr. Bonsell, Mr. Baksa, Mr. Rehm, Bert Spahr, Mr. Miller, which was our assistant principal, he's presently our assistant principal; Leslie Prall, and the only one I'm not sure of is Mr. Eshbach.
Q And who is Mr. Rehm?
A Mr. Rehm was a science teacher. He was the STS teacher, science/technology, it was more environmental. It was more on the environmental side. We still have that class.
Q And this was the first time I think you said you had ever met with a board member?
A Correct.
Q And did one individual take charge of running the meeting or moderating it?
A Mr. Baksa pretty much introduced us and introduced Mr. Bonsell. And I just remember him saying he's just interested in how you teach the subject of evolution.
Q Do you remember him saying those words?
A Yes, pretty similar to that. Not exact words.
Q And did the teachers identify a spokesperson for them that day?
A For the biology department we identified Jenn Miller as our spokesperson.
Q And do you remember what kind of questions were asked of Ms. Miller?
A By whom?
Q By either Mr. Baksa or Mr. Bonsell.
A I think Mr. Baksa just said we're going to go around and you can express how you teach the subject of evolution. And I remember Jenn saying well, I'm going to talk for the biology teachers, so it's not everybody.
Q And do you remember whether Mr. Bonsell asked any questions?
A I can't remember any specific questions, but I know Jenn Miller had to repeat some of what she told him, because it had to do with the origin of species compared to origin of life.
Q And can you tell us what the difference there is?
A Origin of life is where life came from, came about, when it came about. Origin of species is how, how a species becomes another species, for lots of different reasons.
Q And do you recall what Ms. Miller explained to Mr. Bonsell?
A Pretty much what I just said.
Q And --
A In order --
Q And that was fine?
A Yeah, that was fine.
Q And did you add anything to what Ms. Miller was saying or what she had told Mr. Bonsell?
A No. If I remember correctly, he looked at me and said, he said, is that how the biology teachers teach it. And I remember him looking at me and I said yes.
Q Do you remember saying anything else at that meeting?
A Huh-uh.
Q Do you remember intelligent design coming up at that meeting?
A No.
Q Do you remember creationism coming up at that meeting?
A No.
Q Now I want to go over with you about how, if at all, your presentation of evolution changed after these two meetings, the one with Mr. Baksa, one with Mr. Bonsell.
So what I'd first like to do is go over how you had been teaching evolution at the time before these meetings. Okay. Is that clear?
A Clear.
Q And as Mr. Gillen discussed with you, you apparently drew a line on the chalkboard?
A Yes.
Q And in this -- is this the first thing you did when you introduced the subject of evolution?
A Correct.
Q And as I understood your testimony, on one side you wrote creationism, and on the other side you wrote evolution?
A Correct.
Q And then what did you say about the creationism side?
A Creationism was based on Bibles, religion, Biblical writings. And I remember saying that we're not going to cover this side because I'm not certified, and it's illegal for me to talk about that side in a public school.
And then I said, this is the side we're going to talk about, the evolution side. And then the facts on this side were things such as fossil records, DNA, and then I would go into what does everybody think evolution is.
Q And at any time did you either tell or suggest to students that creationism was a scientific theory?
A No, I might have said it was a theory.
Q Not a scientific theory?
A No.
Q And you certainly didn't teach creationism?
A Correct.
Q And beyond what you just told us about what you said to the students, did you bring up creationism again in the classroom?
A No.
Q And did you ever get questions from students about creationism?
A They could have asked a question but I told them I couldn't talk about it.
Q And that was your practice before the meeting with Mr. Baksa, and then the meeting with Mr. Baksa and Mr. Bonsell?
A Correct.
Q Now, after this meeting, did you stop doing this?
A Yes. Well, I stopped dividing the board in half and writing creationism on one side.
Q And now, they didn't tell you to do that, right?
A No.
Q But you stopped anyway?
A Um-hum.
Q Why did you do that?
A I just felt there was some controversy, because I had to go to two meetings, and for like the first time, tell how I taught a particular subject. I didn't know if I was really doing something wrong with writing that creationism word on the board, so I just figured I would stick to the exact book pretty much.
Q And before your meetings, these two meetings in the fall of 2003, did you used to show a videotape as part of your discussion on evolution?
A I've showed a lot of tapes, actually.
Q And do you find videotapes are an effective way to teach students?
A Yes.
Q And, I mean, this is kind of the MTV generation, but so you find students pay particular attention to videotapes?
A Yes, if they're good ones.
Q And the tape that I believe you showed before the meetings in the fall of 2003 was a Discovery Channel tape?
A Yes, a lot of them were Discovery Channel.
Q And have you found that to be a good and reliable source?
A Yes.
Q And something that is accessible to the students?
A Correct.
Q And do you remember the name of the tape you showed?
A One of them -- I show more than one. The exact titles I'm not sure. Some were of common descent, fossil records, others were of evolution and DNA.
Q Did you show one entitled Apes to Man?
A Probably, to some classes. I remember that title because it's always -- somebody says Apes to Man, and that's the controversial statement that kids think evolution is right away. And it's a good tape because it shows that apes are not from man.
Q So you did, prior to the fall of 2003, on occasion show those tapes?
A Yes. I'm not sure if I showed that one every semester or, you know, it all depended on timing too, how much time.
Q And after these two meetings in the fall of 2003, did you stop showing those tapes?
A Yes, I don't show any tapes on that subject anymore.
Q You still show tapes on other subjects?
A Correct.
Q But not on evolution?
A No.
Q Now, are you aware of any other biology teachers changing the way they teach evolution after these two meetings?
A I know Jenn Miller used to do a time line, there was a time line on, probably origin of species, and I don't think -- she doesn't do that anymore because they used to do it in the hallway.
Q So she would go out in the hallway and -- do you know what it is she had students do?
A Yeah, like going on a register tape, the thin tape, they would lay it all through the hallway, and because of how many millions of years things, origin of species and other origins, and they would actually get dates and draw and write in the actual name of the species.
Q And one of the things I would assume that this exercise did was to really emphasize how old the earth is and the huge period of time over which change has occurred?
A Correct.
Q But after these meetings she stopped doing that?
A I -- yes, because I don't see her -- I don't know if I ever asked her if she did, I just don't see her any more doing it.
Q Now, I want to talk a little bit about the curriculum change. And let me just, so I understand, you were not particularly involved or involved at all in discussion of the biology textbook change?
A Just to view some of the copies that we could get.
Q But at some point did you just tell Ms. Miller that since you all taught the subject in a similar way, that she could just sort of speak for you?
A Correct.
Q So you didn't attend a lot of the meetings that -- in early, mid 2004 about the biology textbook?
A I don't think I attended any of those.
Q So the -- the next time that you kind of get drawn into the saga here was around the curriculum change?
A Correct.
Q And were you involved in meetings around the curriculum change?
A Yes.
Q And you met with other teachers to discuss it?
A Yes.
MR. WALCZAK: Matt, could you put up P-84, please. I think it's P-84-B.
THE COURT: You may.
Q I show you what's been marked as plaintiff s exhibit P-84B. And if you could turn to the second page of this exhibit, Mr. Linker. Do you recognize this?
A Yes.
Q Now, the State of Pennsylvania made some changes to its standards on biology a few years ago, is that right?
A Correct.
Q And was it you and Ms. Miller who were asked to review this curriculum plan and make sure that it was in accord with the new state standards?
A Pretty much had to write the whole thing.
Q And so you had actually rewritten the standards or made some changes to them within the past few years?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember when that was?
A That was over a series -- maybe even more than one year, because we did a lot of it during our in-service time.
Q Now, as you look at what's been marked as plaintiff's exhibit 84B, the changes that you all had made or eventually approved, were in the second column, down to the second to last line, is that correct?
A Correct.
Q So that's what the science teachers had adopted, and what the -- and I guess what the board had eventually approved?
A Correct.
Q So the change we're talking about is that last one in the second column.
A Yes.
Q Now, it reads here, "Students will be made aware of gaps in Darwin's theory and of other theories of evolution." Is that something that teachers wanted to add?
A Not necessarily. We just wanted to keep it the same as it was prior to this.
Q So you really didn't want to add anything to the curriculum here?
A Correct.
Q And so you were doing this because you were getting pressure from the school board?
A I don't know if you want to call it pressure, but they kept bringing in different papers and saying that they wanted it this way.
Q So you were reacting to what either Mr. Baksa or somebody was bringing to you?
A Correct.
Q Now, in this draft, do you recall whether this is in fact the compromise that the teachers had agreed to? If you look at the last paragraph in column two, does that look familiar?
A Yes.
Q Now, it says, "Students will be made aware of gaps in Darwin's theory." So you all had agreed to the word "gaps"?
A Yes.
Q Were you teaching gaps in Darwin's theory?
A No.
Q But you weren't teaching evolution as a fact anyway, right?
A No, I mean, there are no -- I mean --
Q Theories aren't facts, right?
A I don't use the word "fact".
Q And were the teachers opposed to using the word "problems" in that sentence?
A I don't remember with the "problems," I don't remember that being a big issue.
Q Now, I don't see the word intelligent design there. Were the teachers opposed to using the word intelligent design?
A Yes.
Q Was there any disagreement among the biology teachers about that?
A No.
Q So there wasn't one biology teacher who said, you know, wait a minute, this is an alternative theory, maybe we should be teaching this?
A No.
Q I want to focus on what happened immediately after October 18th, which was when the curriculum change was passed by the board. Did you and your colleagues have concerns about what the curriculum change meant for the teachers?
A Yes.
Q And what was that concern?
A If it's in the curriculum, me, personally, if it's in the curriculum, we should be teaching it. And there was something in there that we didn't want to teach.
Q And at some point after October 18th, did you -- did the science or biology teachers have a meeting with Mr. Baksa to talk about how you would address this curriculum change?
A We had several meetings after that.
Q And at one of these meetings did you raise a concern that you didn't know anything about ID and how you should teach this?
A Correct.
Q And did Mr. Baksa, in fact, respond to you that maybe we'll have to get you seminars or classes to learn about ID?
A Yes.
Q And this was after the curriculum was passed, right?
A I would say yes.
Q So -- so did it appear to you that the school district actually was going to give you instructions so that you could teach intelligent design in the classroom?
A At least to know what it was.
Q And then at some point after that the notion of reading a statement came up?
A Correct.
Q But initially, right after the curriculum change was made, they were trying to figure out how you were going to present this in a classroom.
A I don't think it was ever -- we asked that question, but it was never told directly to us.
Q I want to ask you about your understanding of intelligent design. Had you ever heard the term before this controversy in the fall of 2004?
A No.
Q So it's not something you had ever taught?
A No.
Q Do you know whether any of your fellow biology teachers had ever taught it?
A No.
Q Do you know biology teachers in other school districts?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether any of them have ever taught intelligent design?
A Not the ones that I've personally talked to.
Q When did you first learn about intelligent design, do you remember?
A I think mine, me personally, was when I saw these curriculum changes come in front of me.
Q Now, had you ever, prior to fall of 2004, had you ever heard of the textbook Of Pandas and People?
A I think I saw that from these papers also.
Q And at some point did you get a chance to look at Of Pandas and People?
A Yes.
Q And you didn't -- you weren't asked to review that in the summer of 2004, were you?
A No.
Q You weren't involved in that whole textbook dispute?
A That was summertime.
Q And that was just fine with you.
THE COURT: Good answer.
Q Did you study Pandas when you finally got it or did you just kind of skim it?
A I remember skimming it -- reading different parts of it, not too much.
Q And was that your first exposure to intelligent design?
A Yes.
Q And do you remember what your reaction to the book was?
A I remember it was tough for me to read. I remember reading a section one or two more times to try to get a picture in my mind. And then I remember going to another section of the book, and -- which I think it was the first chapter, and I said well, maybe this will be a little easier, and it said the origin of life. And I thought, well, we don't teach that; and that's pretty much where it ended.
Q And did you see in the book where it talked about an intelligent designer or a master intellect?
A Yeah, that's in the first part.
Q And what was your reaction to that?
A Intelligent designer, higher power, I thought -- I thought of God.
Q So that was your immediate reaction?
A Yes.
Q Now, when you were still in school, not as a teacher but as a student, where did you get your degree at college?
A York College undergrad.
Q And what was your major?
A Secondary Ed. Biology.
Q Did you take science education classes?
A Yes.
Q Did you take a school law class?
A School law, yes.
Q And did they teach about separation of church and state there?
A I'm sure it was some part of it. They were -- school law was mostly court cases dealing with everything a teacher could get in trouble for.
Q And did you think that teaching intelligent design might get you in trouble?
A Yes.
Q Why is that?
A Because in my mind it had to do with God or religion, and I knew you weren't allowed to do that in a public school.
MR. WALCZAK: Just a few more questions here, Mr. Linker.
Matt, if you could put up plaintiff's exhibit 121.
THE COURT: You may.
Q Mr. Linker, I show you what's been marked as plaintiff's exhibit 121. Do you recognize this document?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A It's the document that we signed opting out of reading the statement.
Q And is this a document that you reviewed before you signed onto it?
A Yes. It was explained to us.
Q And were you forced to sign this in any way?
A No.
Q And so did you agree with what was contained in this letter?
A Yes.
MR. WALCZAK: Matt, if you could highlight in the first paragraph starting with, "this request."
Q In the middle of that first paragraph, and let me just make sure I understand, this -- this was the teachers request to not read the four-paragraph statement that had been developed by the board and the administration.
A Correct.
Q And in that sentence you say, "This request is based upon our considered opinion that reading the statement violates our responsibilities as professional educators as set forth in the Code of Professional Practice," et cetera. Did you believe that was true, that for you to read that statement would violate your Code of Professional Ethics?
A Yes.
MR. WALCZAK: Matt, if you could highlight the next paragraph there.
Q Could you read that paragraph into the record, please, Mr. Linker?
A "Central to teaching act and our ethical obligation is the solemn responsibility to teach the truth. Section 235.10; number two, guides our relationships with students and provides that, the public educator may not knowingly and intentionally misrepresent subject matter and curriculum."
Q Is that something that you were also taught in science education classes?
A If I can remember that far back, yes.
MR. WALCZAK: And Matt, if you could then highlight the paragraph below that. And the first sentence there says, "Intelligent design is not science." Do you agree with that?
A Correct.
Q As you sit here today, you still believe that's true?
A Yes.
Q And then the next sentence says, "Intelligent design is not biology." Do you still feel that's true?
A Yes.
Q "And intelligent design is not an accepted scientific theory." Do you believe that's true?
A Yes.
MR. WALCZAK: And Matt, if you could turn to the next page.
Q And Mr. Linker, if I could just ask you to read that -- that first paragraph on the second page of plaintiff's exhibit 121, please?
A "I believe that if I, as the classroom teacher, read the required statement, my students will inevitably and understandably believe that intelligent design is a valid scientific theory, perhaps on par with the theory of evolution. That is not true. To refer the students to Of Pandas and People, as if it is a scientific resource, breaches my ethical obligation to provide them with scientific knowledge that is supported by recognized scientific proof or theory."
Q And you agreed with that in January of 2005?
A Correct.
Q Do you agree with that today?
A Correct.
Q Do you believe that if you were required to teach students in your biology class the theory of intelligent design, that you would be bringing religion into the classroom?
A Yes.
MR. WALCZAK: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Walczak.
MR. GILLEN: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q A few questions, Mr. Linker, by way of follow up. We've discussed the video that you saw in the June 2004 period and Mr. Walczak just asked you a little about gaps. When you saw the video about gaps in evolutionary theory, you knew there were gaps, correct?
MR. WALCZAK: Your Honor, objection. Outside the scope of the cross. I did not ask him about this video.
MR. GILLEN: He asked him about gaps.
THE COURT: Well, no, your question gets into what's in the video. You'll have to rephrase. It is beyond the scope, so I'm going to sustain the objection.
Q Mr. Linker, you were teaching students at least something about gaps, correct?
A No.
Q I would ask you to look at your deposition, page 46, line 22.
Do you see that I asked a question and you gave an answer. Let me read it for you, line 22. Speaking about the video you say, "It went through all the gaps that we actually even teach, some of it talked about."
Were there gaps you actually taught?
A No, that's the topics that we taught, that I taught in class. The video showed gaps in the topics that I taught. But I never taught gaps, and that was truthfully the first time I seen someone present gaps. That's what I meant by that sentence.
Q Well, and I accept your answer today.
But you thought it was neat to see those gaps, correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, Mr. Walczak questioned you about the statement, the truth of the matter is, you really don't know when the statement first came up, do you?
A Which statement?
Q The statement that was read to implement the biology change; you don't know when the idea of the statement first came up?
A No.
Q You said that when you saw the term intelligent designer, you thought it was God, correct?
A Correct.
Q That was your interpretation, correct?
A Yes.
Q You didn't read the whole book of Pandas to see whether the book took that position, did you?
A No.
Q You've testified to your belief that intelligent design is not science, correct?
A Correct.
Q But you didn't even read the whole book of Pandas, correct?
A Correct.
Q And you don't have a Ph.D. in science?
A No.
MR. GILLEN: No further questions, Your Honor.
Q Could you just tell us what your education background is? I know you mentioned that you had, I guess it was a biology education degree from York College?
A Yes, Secondary Ed. Biology from York College, and then I have 36 graduate credits after that. It's called a masters equivalency because it's not an actual program.
Q And what kind of courses did you take for that masters equivalency?
A Probably three quarter of them -- three quarters of them dealt with biology/environmental.
Q And were you taught intelligent design in any of those classes?
A No.
MR. WALCZAK: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right, sir. That completes your testimony. You may step down.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Liz, do we have any exhibits?
THE DEPUTY CLERK: No exhibits.
THE COURT: It's quarter of 12. I don't know what your pleasure is. I suppose we could get started, but I'm not so sure we shouldn't start an early -- you're going to take the expert, Mr. Muise?
MR. MUISE: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We could break now, I would suggest until one o clock, and then pick the expert up at one o clock.
MR. GILLEN: That makes sense because I have to do some setup and check the electronics and so forth.
THE COURT: That will give us a nice long afternoon of expert testimony.
MR. MUISE: You're going to love it, I guarantee.
THE COURT: Forwarned is forearmed, for all of those who visit this courtroom today.
All right. We will recess at this point until 1 p.m., and we will pick up the witness -- the expert witness at that time. We'll be in recess until one.
THE DEPUTY CLERK: All rise.
| Home Page | Browse | Search | Feedback | Links |
| The FAQ | Must-Read Files | Index | Creationism | Evolution | Age of the Earth | Flood Geology | Catastrophism | Debates |
