Subject: | Why Epidendrosaurus is a Dinosaur Date: | 26 Mar 2007 Message-ID: | 45kf03hktnjsnuagin0n4ltrbnbvihpr6n@4ax.com
JTEM wrote:
>>> Wait a minute. Let's not mince words here. You're lying and you know you're
>>> lying. I cited the relevant posts. Responding directly to you, after I pointed
>>> out that it may not even be a dinosaur, I demonstrated this fact with URLs.
Augray wrote:
>> No, you didn't.
JTEM then pointed to one of his previous messages at
<http://tinyurl.com/2rwbsw> which included the following:
> http://www.vertpaleo.org/jvp/16-723-741.html
>
> | Dinosauria is diagnosed by 17 apomorphic features,
> | such as: deltopectoral crest distally projected; at
> | least three sacral vertebrae; perforated acetabulum;
> | presence of brevis shelf on ilium; astragalar ascending
> | process inserts beneath the tibia; distal tarsal 4
> | proximodistally depressed.
>
> The above isn't a fluke:
>
> http://www.palaeos.com/Vertebrates/Units/Unit310/100.html#Dinosauria
>
> While you're studying, concentrate on question #8:
>
> http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/edu/dees/courses/v1001/pracmid03_ans.html
>
> Also: This find seems to have taken the dinosaurs-evolved-from-birds
> arguments that most people are really making.
>
> It's primitive AND bird like, more primitive and more bird like
> than archaeopteryx. Not that there was ever any shortage of
> dinosaurs more bird like than archaeopteryx, but it's the
> "primitive" that has got us here.
Augray wrote:
Christ but you're dense. When are you going to get it through your
head that making a claim is not the same as making an argument? To use
a definition whose source will instantly be recognized by the regulars
here, "An argument is a connected series of statements intended to
establish a proposition."
Yes, it is.
But it's something that you have yet to do regarding the non-dinosaurian status of Epidendrosaurus. It's obvious that you need to be shown how it's done, so I'll argue the opposing position, demonstrating that Epidendrosaurus is indeed a dinosaur.
My source for the traits of Epidendrosaurus are Zhang et al. (2002). In addition, I'll refer to the traits of Scansoriopteryx (Czerkas & Yuan 2002) as this is considered a junior synonym of Epidendrosaurus (Harris 2004; Padian 2004).
Novas (1996) lists the following 17 traits of Dinosauria:
Of these, the states of traits 1, 2, 4-6, 11, and 13-17 are unknown for Epidendrosaurus, leaving us the following six traits that can be checked:
3- Quadrate head laterally exposed?
Yes (Czerkas & Yuan 2002, Fig.31)
7- Deltopectoral crest distally projected - at least 25% of the length of the humerus?
In Epidendrosaurus, the deltopectoral crest is roughly 30% of the
length of the humerus (Czerkas & Yuan 2002, Fig.8).
8- Manual digit IV with three or fewer phalanges?
As Epidendrosaurus completely lacks digit IV, the answer is yes
(Zhang et al. 2002; Czerkas & Yuan 2002).
9- At least three sacral vertebrae?
Epidendrosaurus has five (Czerkas & Yuan 2002).
10- Perforate acetabulum?
Much has been made of this trait, and while the pelvis is not present
in the holotype, it is in the referred specimen. Czerkas and Yuan
write that
But this is irrelevant to Novas, who states that
In other words, it's the perforation that counts, and not the size. Similarly, the perforation of the acetabulum is reduced in Unenlagia, but no one claims that it's not a dinosaur (Novas & Puerta 1997).
12- Ischium with slender shelf and with ventral "keel" (obturator
process) restricted to the proximal third of the bone?
Yes (Czerkas & Yuan 2002, Fig.12)
Of the six known traits of Epidendrosaurus, none of them disqualify it from being a dinosaur. But it's also obvious that it's a derived theropod, as it has a manual phalangeal formula of 2-3-4, and a pedal phalangeal formula of 2-3-4-5. In addition, proximal end of metatarsal I does not contact the ankle, and it possesses a semilunate carpal.
Finally, Zhang et al. (2002) write that
That's how you make an argument. When you claimed that it could be argued that Epidendrosaurus wasn't a dinosaur, you obviously didn't know what you were talking about, as there is no known trait that disqualifies it. Simply pointing to web pages that you don't understand doesn't cut it.
REFERENCES
Czerkas, S. A. & Yuan C.-X. 2002. An Arboreal Maniraptoran from Northeast China. In "Feathered Dinosaurs and the Origin of Flight", edited by S. J. Czerkas, pp. 63-95. Blanding, Utah: The Dinosaur Museum.
Harris, J. D. 2004. 'Published works' in the electronic age: recommended amendments to Articles 8 and 9 of the Code. Bulletin of Zoological Nomenclature 61(3):138-148.
Novas, F. E. 1996. Dinosaur Monophyly. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 16(4):723-741.
Novas, F. E. & P. F. Puerta. 1997. New evidence concerning avian origins from the Late Cretaceous of Patagonia. Nature 387:390-392.
Padian, K. 2004. Basal Avialae. In "The Dinosauria", Second Edition, editied by D. B. Weishampel, P. Dodson, and H. Osm¢lska, pp. 210-231. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Zhang F.-C., Zhou Z.-H., Xu X., & Wang X.-L. 2002. A juvenile coelurosaurian theropod from China indicates arboreal habits. Naturwissenschaften 89:394-398.
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