Feedback Letter | |
Comment: |
http://dailykos.com/story/2006/1/1/02754/12393 Golden Gould Awards for 2005 by DarkSyde Sat Dec 31, 2005 at 10:27:54 PM PDT Some people might call them idiots, sadly misled, or pig ignorant ... George Bush calls them his Base. The statements below the fold were taken from chat rooms, e-mails, IM's, and the Talk Origins Feedback Archive. As best I can tell these are all sincere objections to evolutionary biology--that's part of what makes them so funny. In several cases I conversed with the authors enough to establish they probably weren't just kids. The scary thing is, a number of them claimed to have degrees in hard science and one or two said they were teachers. Please vote for your favorite as the winner receives a virtual gold plated statue of the late Stephen J. Gould. The master of evolution is immortalized holding his nose with one hand and a small bag full of unidentified refuse at arms length in the other. Here they are in no particular order. :: 10. I know you think you have fossils that proof stuff, but those fossils are all fake, they're made out of tar and stuff, this is fact not theory. They have factories in China mostly making the fossils. 9. If people came from monkeys, why are there still people? 8. If the strata layers were true, the missing links would be the dinosaurs because they came way before other evolutionary stages. But no, we are finding dinosaur bones left and right. We have over 35 kinds of dinosaurs and we have more than one for each. Is that a problem. How long have they been digging now? 7. then perhaps you can explain how A fish crawled out of the sea and evolved into a mammal with lungs without dying before he evolved. You scientists make up something to explain all of your theories without ANY proof. You are fools living a lie. And being as Satan is the father of lies, he is your master. Turn or Burn boys! 6. hey, i get so confused when i hear about all this evolution nonsense. was it once upon a time,lifeless matter came to life. became a mything link. then a boy.or was it.once upon a time, a lifeless chunk of wood came to life.became a talking puppet.then a boy. please clear up my confusion.....yo momma 5. DS I'm hoping you won't be like the others and we can have a nice two-way discussion were we each listen to the other persons. As long as you understand that evolutionists have no proof and just the tail on an amoeba is proof of intelligent design and that's my view and I don't really care to read yours. 4. Evolution? Isn't that what Osama ben Laden believes in? Isn't that what the Taliban teaches in their madroseos? Nice company you keep, terrorist. 3. You have to ask yourself though, why are evolutionists so vile and disgusting and rude and why are scientists like DR Hovin so polite and courteous? [What makes this e-mail ironic and worthy of nomination is that just a few hours after I opened it I received an unsolicited Instant Message which read in part] "You baby-killers make me sick with your slime are poeple bullshit and your jew teachers telling our kids they're nothing but monkeys. I know you're all gonna brn in jew hell but I hope first we round you pigs up and execute you first, s lowly and painfully. 2. Most mammals contain DNA similaities because mammals eat other mammals. IMHO, our winner from 2004 deserves a renomination, below: 1. How do evolutionists explain the Caribbean Explosion? |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | Andrew Grant |
Comment: | I spent some time browsing your site, and considerably longer reading through feedback. I find the comments of a number of christian responders pretty embarrassing and perhaps somewhat naive. Educated in public schools, I have heard the accepted evolutionary theory, but I have balanced that over many years by seeking information in support of creation, and I am convinced of its truth. That is not to say that I agree with every creationist's viewpoint referred to on this site and certainly not the way some of them express their beliefs. Perhaps it's true to say that we will continue to believe what we want to believe and fit our information to the model that suits us best. However, believing that we are here as a series of accidental improvements, does little to give hope for the future, or any real meaning for our existence. In the end we remain as only dust and only the fittest will survive. That sort of thinking won't lead us to rebuild failing marriages or give sacrificially for the benefit of another. Some of histories greatest achievements for the betterment of humankind have been by people who believe in the Bible and the God that so many today would prefer to consider myth and leave out of our children's upbringing. At the same time we are asking why society seems to be breaking down. I believe in more than evolution has to offer. I believe in a God who knows you, and loves you and sent His son to die in your place because you are so much more than an accident. |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | Andrew, we here, no matter what our beliefs, know that such Christians represent a small minority of the Christian communion. But thanks for your balanced comments. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I have a question that I would like clarified. I am a firm believer in Evolution, but may have some faulty personel believes that someone could help straighten out. The statement that "evolution in not progress" troubles me. It seems to me that that the word progress is filled with lots of cultural bagage and is accurate and this statement ("evolution is not progress") holds up but can we say that the overall system evolves towards greater awareness. Is it not possible to imagine a species line that is so suggessful (aware) that it would overcome the restrictions of its enviroment. What if the Universe has intention towards grerater awareness, does evolution as a theory allow for this possibity? Is this illogical? What does it say about evolution? Please help. Thanks Steve G. |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | You need to read
some of the literature, because this is a complex topic with a
wide range of opinions.
Gould and others believe that evolution is not progressive.
Others like Francisco Ayala and
Conway Morris believe it is, either limitedly or qualifiedly,
like Ayala, or deeply, like Morris.
Michael Ruse, in his Monads to Man thinks that many evolutionists have been progressivists. I think that this doesn't mean that evolutionary theory is progressive. Another book worth reading is Evolutionary Progress edited by Matthew Nitecki. It contains the Ayala essay and many others. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | You state: "Scientists don't claim that cells came into being through random processes. They are thought to have evolved from more primitive precursors." My question is "Where do these primitive precursors come from?" I have asked a similar question to Dr. Kenneth Miller of Brown University and he responded that this is just one of 125 unanswered questions. Just where does life begin? |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | We don't know where life began. Dr Miller is right. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I'd like to extend my undying praise for the work that went into this website. Great job; it's very informative! |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | In the rebuttals of young-earth arguments, the age of the Saraha Desert comes up, and the author agrees that the desert is young, but that it has no bearing on the age of the earth. The actual thesis put forward by Kent Hovind is that the Sahara is the oldest desert on Earth, and puts forth the question, "Why are there no older deserts?" with the expectation that the answer lies in a young-earth. Would any of the staff like to answer this more fully, or point me in the right direction? |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | As far as deserts
go, the Sahara is quite young. There are many deserts that are
far older. Often cited as the oldest desert is the Namib
desert, in the west coast of Africa. It is about 80 to 90
million years old.
This might be a useful point to add to CD821: Saraha expansion. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | Before the flood there was a water canopy above the earth which caused a green house environment. That is why there are mastedon corpses in Siberea with vegetation in their mouths. The flood took place around fall or winter as the ice formed rather quickly. After the flood the earth was exposed to a different type of weather and land types. Ice was not here before the flood. Ref: Genesis 1:7 Genesis 7:11. |
Response | |
From: | |
Author of: | Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition |
Response: | (I love flood-related folklore.) |
Feedback Letter | |
Comment: | Creationists use the abundance of dragon legends as proof that dinosaurs and people lived together. Does this make any sense to you? |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | You don't need living bodies to build legends. Some dragon legends come from fossil bones. One intriguing hypothesis, described in Steve Jones's An Instinct for Dragons, is that the dragon archetype arises from an instinctive fear and respect for snakes, large cats, and birds of prey. See also CH712. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I've reviewed your
view on the whole "Second Law of Thermodynamics" issue, and I'd
like to suggest that perhaps your understanding of the
compatibility of that law and evolution might be flawed.
The second law states: "The entropy of an isolated system never decreases." As an aside note, I agree that the earth is not an isolated system, but from an evolutionary point of view (not my own) the universe would have to be considered a closed system - the very possibility of it not being a closed system would imply interaction with some kind of outside force, for example, God. Now, since entropy never decreases, and an increase in entropy results in such things as equilibrium, how can abiogenesis (the evolution from non-living things to living things) contribute toward equilibrium? And furthermore, how can the continual evolution from perhaps one species into millions (diversification) be considered a move toward equilibrium? |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | Your understanding
of basic physics and thermodynamics is defintely flawed. Nothing
in evolution or biology requires or suggests a net decrease in
entropy of the universe.
Organisms live and grow by tapping into the massive energy flow that proceeds from the Sun out into empty space. That energy flow is part of the inexorable process towards equilibrium, and thermodynamics requires that eventually the Sun will be exhausted and life on Earth will cease. In the meantime, the Earth is maintained far from thermodynamic equilibrium by this energy flow. Evolution as a physical physical process requires living reproducing organisms. These can only exist far from equilibrium in the presence of a suitable source of energy. When the Sun runs down, life here will cease. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | Firstly, a quick thank you for such an excellent and informative site. As a proponent of evolution, I am surprised that I have not been able to find in this extensive archive any mention of a challenge to creationists on explaining the human appendix. When I was 14, I had appendicitis and naturally required surgery. Evolution gives me a detailed and reasonable explanation for why I had an appendix to become infected in the first place AND as to why I can live happily and healthily without one. Creationism, however, maintains that we were created 'as-is' - my question is this: Does anyone know of any creationist explanation as to why God would have designed me with a redundant organ that's sole accomplishment in the course of my lifetime can only be to become infected and a threat to my life? |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | See The vestigiality of the human vermiform appendix or a briefer rebuttal to the functional appendix claim. Creationists claim that the human appendix offers a trivial contribution to the immune system and simply overlook the much greater danger it presents. |
Feedback Letter | |
Comment: | Regarding creationist/ID claim CA215 (no practical use of evolution): You have listed several practical applications of evolution in the biological sciences. However I was somewhat dismayed to see no mention of the long standing use of paleontology in fossil fuel and mineral exploration. Occurrences of certain microfossils of a certain age in sedimentary layers are used to determine the location of oil and gas fields, for instance. Microfossil analysis of drill cores is used by oil companies to help guide multi-billion dollar drilling decisions and has been for quite a while. There is an industry built around this and, needless to say, there is plenty of information about it on the web. This, of course, is separate from the fact that oil, gas and coal are themsleves fossil fuels, the creation of which, properly explained, is another example of a practical use of evolution. Locations of certain minerals, as well, can be determined through using evolutionary principles. Some iron deposits were created by iron fixing bacteria, which over millions of years have been overlain by layers of sediment. Knowing the stratigraphic sequence of sediments can aid in the detection of such mineral deposits. Chalk, gypsum and marble are other commonly used "minerals" created by evolution. Much of the debate about evolution focuses on animal morphology and genetics. However, many of its practical examples can be found in the other “branch” of evolution: geology. |
Feedback Letter | |
Comment: | Wow, this site you have going is intriguing. Creationism is ridiculous as people fervently believe that two hundred books written by man and translated by man, etc., etc., could possibly give an accurate, let alone infallible, yet still they trust in the men to have spoken straight from a god that they demand is real. Never having seen proof of the existence of such a god makes me wonder how they can demand proof for any other theory. To think that evolutionists believe in anarchy is also ridiculous. Believing in god does not give the patent on moral fiber. Social laws and morals were invented by the tribes of man long before christianity was introduced. Gods continue, as they have done throughout history, to be used to explain that which man has yet to understand. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR SITE AND TO THE CHRISTIANS WHO ARE SPENDING THEIR TIME READING THIS SITE, I SAY LEAVE THE JUDGMENT AND DAMNING TO THE GOD YOU SO FERVENTLY BELIEVE IN. SORRY ABOUT THE CAP LOCK, IT WAS DONE BY MISTAKE AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS PARAGRAPH. |
Feedback Letter | |
Comment: | As for the index
to the creationist claims http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
Does anyone else think it may be best to put list of claims starting with CA to the bottom or at least somewhere else rather than first paragraph? It just contains satire imaginary creationists claims 'Homosexuality receives approval from evolutionists.' or 'Darwin was a racist' which are frankly quite pointless. And the satirizing list seems quite long to scroll down and offputting at expense of respect for the website, before the arguments improve from CB paragraph on, which is what surely what we need? |
Response | |
From: | Chris Stassen |
Author of: | Isochron Dating |
Response: | I'm not really
into the "ethics" arguments, myself, but they are an important
response to creationist slander. Those claims are definitely not
"satire imaginary creationist claims." For example, both of the
major creationist organizations use "Darwin was a racist" in
order to score political points:
|
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | As a Bible
believing Christian, I must say, I do not agree with much on your
site, but I would like to give you a thought.
Let's say you're right, evolution is true, everything happened by chance, and there is no need for salvation (in the Biblical sense), and when we die, thats it.You will have lived your life, and I will have lived mine, "no harm, no foul"...right? But what if the Bible is right (200+ prophecies fulfilled so far), and there is a need for salvation? Then when you and I die, there is are HUGE differences in what happens to us. So in that sense, the Non Christian has a 50/50 chance of not needing to worry about what happens after death. Is it worth it? |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | Most Christians don't agree that salvation and accepting evolution are mutually exclusive. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | Stian |
Comment: | You do seem to have a lot of problems with the flood of the Bible. But what about the creation of the universe from a evolutionist-view? Where did it all come from? Where did the energy come from (remember first and second law of thermodynamics?)???? What about the mathimatical imposibillity of Big Bang???? Mathematicians found it that Big-bang was impossible, it could never happen. What about the earths population if the world supposedly should be billions of yeras old? What about the size of the biggest desert (Sahara) in the world if the world supposedly should be billions of years old? What about the delta of the colorado river if this river should supposedly from the Grand Canyon? Where did all the matter go?????????? These are just some of the many thousand questions the evoulution-theory should ask itself. |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | It is flatly
untrue that mathematicians found the Big Bang was impossible. The
basics of Big Bang expansion have continued to be confirmed as
space based observatories bring us massive amounts of new data,
and research is focussed in on the details. We have a new FAQ on the Big Bang which
explains the matter in more detail.
The size of the Sahara and the population of the Earth present no problems whatsoever with the Earth’s great age. This is a total non-sequitur. The Colorado River delta is a large delta, containing about 10,000 cubic miles of sediment. This is far more material than would be required to fill the Grand Canyon, and more than could be deposited in a mere 6000 years. Of course, there is a lot more involved than the Canyon alone. Thousands of square miles of plateau have been deeply eroded over the millennia, and much of this is also found in the delta. Other material has ended up in inland flood plains below the canyon, and lost to wind, and much is completely dissolved and dispersed throughout the oceans. Some links and details are found at creationist claim number CD210 "The mouth of the Colorado River does not have enough sediment for the Grand Canyon." The problem is not that scientists are refusing to ask the hard questions. They have been doing that all along. The real problem is individuals who refuse to look at any of the answers. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I would just like to know if any of the material in your website has been or will be compiled into a book which I can give to some of my lemming friends? |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | The Counter-Creationism Handbook by me. See the sidebar on the intro page to the Index to Creationist Claims. |
Feedback Letter | |
Comment: | Hitler used the Evolution theory to justify his "purification" of the human race. |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | First of all this
is an attempt at guilt by association. The idea being that if
Hitler espoused evolution then this must mean that evolution is
either wrong or evil. This does not logically follow.
Secondly, Hitler also claimed to be doing Gods work.
Racist have used Biblical justifications for their beliefs and actions ( the curse of Ham for example) since long before evolution was accepted by science, does that mean the Bible is to blame for what they did? Of course not and neither is evolutionary theory to blame for those who might misuse it. Racists will misuse anything they can to justify their ridiculous beliefs. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | Jason |
Comment: | To: Mark Isaak
I just read your November 2005 response to a letter from lojikal. I noticed that you spelled the word "god" with a lowercase g. You should have spelled it with a capital g because you were referring to the one true God. If you were referring to some other false god, you could have made the g lowercase. |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | I meant no offense except to those who wish to take it. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | Jason |
Comment: | To: John Wilkins
I read your November 2005 response to an anonymous person's letter about spelling. Your sarcasm is not very funny. |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | No, sadly, it rarely is. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I'm glad to see your FAQ on suspicious creationist credentials. You should add Dr. Dennis Swift (Acambaro dinosaurs, Ica stones, etc.) to your list of creationists who mislead people about their credentials. He is touted as an expert on dinosaurs and ancient civilizations and his e-mail address even begins with drdino. Though he is frequently listed as having a PhD, including in his own online reports, he has no degree in paleontology or archaeology and his degree is actually a ThD. He received his Doctorate in Theology from the University of South Africa. His true credentials are listed at the website for the unaccredited Master's Divinity School Program in Biblical Apologetics. |
Feedback Letter | |
Comment: | Your diatribe on
Dawkins computer model neatly side-steps some very valid points
that invalidate it's whole premise.
1) The computer program had a pre-determined result it was striving for. It was looking for the text from Hamlet. You can't say random creation of amino acids knew the result they were striving for. If I tell someone to go into the world and try to find gold, with that goal in mind, they will eventually find it. The computer program deliberately looked for specific text by randomly replacing characters. Amino acids had nothing to attempt to obtain, it was pure random chance. When that model is used, the odds so far surpass statistical impossibility, it's unreal. 2) A computer program, by it's very definition, is not random. Attempting to use a computer simulation to create selection is expected, that's what programs are design to do. 3) The computer only used the 26 characters of the alphabet. A very small, and consequently much easier selection than the hundreds of amino acids that had to just magically appear. 4) The first amino acid had to form (again the odds of this happening is the initial argument) prior to it being able to replicate itself as the modified program did. |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | Your diatribe on
Dawkins computer model neatly contains some very false points
that invalidate its whole argument.
1) Dawkins' computer model was not intended to demonstrate evolution in its entirety. It was intended to show the power of cumulative selection, which it does. For examples of computer programs which show much more of the evolutionary process, see "Genetic algorithms and evolutionary computation". 2) True randomness can be included in computer programs with the appropriate hardware. I am guessing that Dawkins used a pseudorandom-number generator for convenience, but you are welcome to try his program with a true random-number generator to see for yourself whether it makes any appreciable difference. 3) DNA gets directly translated to only 20 amino acids, not hundreds. 4) Amino acids easily form spontaneously. They are even found in space. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | Elijah |
Comment: | The letter from
Arthur Hinds in the November feedback would have us believe that
all of science is in danger from the dreaded "Creationists". I
would have to ask for some evidence for this quite universal
claim. I have yet to see Creationists attempting to debunk
Archimedes' Principle, picket line protest the value of Planck's
constant, argue over the Nernst Equation or give the raspberry to
the theory of relativity [emphasis added -CS]. Nor
do I see any evidence for those occurrances happening in the
foreseeable future.
Let's at least have the intellectual integrity to admit that the problem arises with a part of evolution, a branch of science that has practically no bearing on our lives as it is. And that part of evolution is not debated when it comes to what is commonly referred to as microevolution. Chicken Little and Henny Penny may have believed the sky was falling but, please, let's keep the children's stories where they belong. |
Responses | |
From: | Chris Stassen |
Author of: | Isochron Dating |
Response: | Most of the FAQs
that I've contributed to this archive involve creationist attacks
on geology. It is misleading to suggest that creationists only
wish to do away with some small portion of biology. Further,
consider:
Two decades ago, creationists were already doing exactly what you say you don't see happening "for the foreseeable future." Creationists don't spend as much energy attacking other areas of science. But that is not because there aren't other sciences on their "hit list;" it is because biology is seen as being more threatening to their religious dogma. They do mount significant attacks on other sciences such as geology and astronomy. Even physics, as shown above, isn't safe. |
Feedback Letter | |
Comment: | In the drawing of the skeleton of the transitional whale species "Ambulocetus," which of those bones were actually discovered. I noticed that some of the bones were spotted, and I was wondering if those are the bones that were found, or if that means something else. |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | Apparently
that reconstruction was based on
only part of the fossil that had been excavated at the time. More
material belonging to the same specimen was retrieved later. In
the photograph below you can see that most of the skeleton is now
represented, especially when one mirrors parts missing on one
side to fill in the gaps on the other side.
Picture source: One of the
Whale Origins Research pages on the Thewissen Lab
web page.
For more on antievolutionist claims about the incompleteness of the Ambulocetus fossils see:
|
Feedback Letter | |
From: | Nick W. |
Comment: | I'm confused by the statement in answer to the FAQ about the Earth's age: "according to numerous, independent dating methods, the Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old." There are several problems with this estimate. How are the scarcity of helium, limited human population, and amount of moon dust accounted for? What makes the "independent dating methods" so reliable? |
Response | |
From: | Chris Stassen |
Author of: | Isochron Dating |
Response: | The independent
methods are outlined in my Age of the Earth FAQ, and some
of the reasons why the results are considered reliable are
discussed in my Isochron
Dating FAQ.
The things which you suggest to be "problems" with the isotopic age are not really relevant to isotopic dating at all. They are standard creationists' attempts to limit the Earth's age in other ways. The three that you mention are so bad that even most creationists have abandoned them by now. See: CR001: There is not enough
helium in the atmosphere for an old earth. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | First of all, I
find your site extremely helpful and lucid. Your site is an
invaluable resourse in my quest to understand Evolution (so I can
better evaluate Creationist/Anti-creationist claims). Thanks for
all the work you all put into it!
Second of all, where can I ask questions?(For example, why is bacteria still around after all these billions of years? Since it mutates so quickly, I'd think it would have lost any resmemblance whatsoever to its original form.) Is there a place I can ask these kind of questions? I was hoping there'd be a forum or something. Thanks a bunch, Bethany |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | Bethany
If an organism form is successful, and there is no reason for it to change, then natural selection will act to retard change, not cause it. Bacteria are very successful in a range of ecological niches. It's unlikely that there will be improvements that can be made to such a long-standing form. However, we should not infer that bacteria have been unchanged in many important respects since they first evolved. They undergo a process known as "lateral genetic transfer", far more frequently than larger organisms share their genes across species. This means that if some useful gene evolves in one lineage, it can very easily (in evolutionary terms) end up in another when genes are taken into the receiving bacterium. Strictly speaking, we don't know what the "original form" of bacteria was. Fossils won't show much, because the "morphology" (a term for the organism's shape) of a single celled organism is mostly internal, and this doesn't fossilise. We can speculate that some form or another is the "same" as the original bacterium, but we only know what modern bacteria "look" like internally. This is a sort of forum for asking these questions, so your questions are quite fair, but you might like to go to The Panda's Thumb and send your queries there to "Professor Steve Steve", who has a number of actual biologists on call to help him answer such intelligent and interesting questions. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | As a non scientist investigating different views on origins I have found any sort of clear information difficult to come by. It seems with this issue, whatever people believe they are inclined to be very biased! Having said that, thanks talkorigins for compiling so much helpful information. |
Feedback Letter | |
Comment: | chosing not to believe in the Creator God will not change the reality that this is the Truth. Some day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD. You should do this before you die to avoid thinking about forever while burning in eternity. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I am not sure how I found this site, but after reading it I wanted to cry. It truly saddens me to see people such as yourselves in a sad attempt to throw God out of your lives. I have concluded that by trying to prove the theory of evolution, you are in a sad attempt to dissprove God. It takes just as much faith to believe that we are all one huge MISTAKE and arose from nothing, than it does to believe that we are the result of intelligent design. There is absolutely nothing you could say to me that would make me even THINK about questioning my faith...are you all truly happy? Are you content in "knowing" that our lives have no point and that the human species arose by chance? If you claim to be....well, all I have to say is that you are missing out on something amazing. Whether you accept it or not, Jesus loves you and died on the cross for your sins. And one day...you WILL meet your maker, and only then will you understand. May God bless the makers/writers of this web site...I know he is using you in some way. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I am a born again Christian, and came across this website not long ago.While reading some of the Q&As you have posted I began to wonder something..."What do evolutionists believe is the purpose for life?"I would appreciate getting an answer from you, because I have seen lots of debates and other materials about this topic and the evolutionists can never answer that important question.But us creationists can.Write me, I'll tell you. |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | "Evolutionists" (by which I assume you mean people who accept evolution as a true notion of science - strictly an "evolutionist" is a specialist in evolutionary biology) have no answer for a simple reason - according to science of any kind, no matter whether physics, geology, astronomy or biology, no "meaning" of the existence of anything is accessible to scientific investigation. If you want meaning, find a religion or do philosophy or toss a coin. Science is about what is, not what should be. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I once set out to develop my own argument against all the points of creationism. I quit because it's like trying to empty the sea with a toy shovel. It was around 40 pages long and not even close to finished. I am glad to see that someone is dedicated enough to the truth to do this. I know from experience that it is so much work. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | First, a word of
thanks for the existence of this archive. It is invaluable for
biology teachers like me :^)
I've read a lot about the various arguments some advance attempting to support Intelligent Design, and have been increasingly puzzled by what strikes me as a big anomaly. There is an underlying assumption to claims of ID which seems to me to be highly questionable. That assumption is that complexity is a hallmark of design (particularly *good* design). I don't think this claim is supportable. In fact, the hallmark of good design is *simplicity*, not complexity. Take, for example, the traditional creationist's favorite object of demonstration: the watch. While the inner workings of a watch may seem complicated to those of us who aren't watchmakers, they are in fact far simpler than the very simplest of living cells. They are made of a variety of simple, basic parts assembled into a relatively simple array. Or consider another favorite--the faces carved at Mt. Rushmore. In reality, the rock surface forming those images is far simpler than natural rock surfaces tend to be. What makes the faces remarkable is the pattern which creates a recognizable image to us, but that image was achieved by *removing* the natural complexity of the rock surface. Or compare any human language with a natural history to a created language like Esperanto. The natural languages are all far more complex than the created languages, with irregularities and quirks absent from the created versions. Complexity is, in fact, much more a hallmark of the kind of accidental, opportunistic, jerry-rigged processes of evolution than of creation or design. So where does this leave ID? Respectfully, and with great appreciation-- Lynn F. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I was interested to read the comments on this site, though I couldn't seem to find any answers against the creation proposal - probably my error. I do wonder though, if evolution is so scientific and the creation model so unlikely, why are significant numbers of scientists moving to Inteligent Design, perhaps not creation, but deffinetly not evolution. |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | The place to start
with your questions is the TalkOrigins Frequently Asked Questions
(FAQ) page.
Your particular point is known as "The Longest Running Falsehood in Creationism." |
Feedback Letter | |
Comment: | Someone asked me
the following questions and I am going to school fulltime and
working fulltime, so I do not have the time to research this, and
was hoping you could give me the answers to pass on.
1. Name one scientific way to falsify evolution? 2. Name a scientific way to prove evolution? Thank you. |
Response | |
From: | |
Author of: | Dino Blood and the Young Earth |
Response: | J.B.S. Haldane
suggested that anyone wishing to disprove evolutionary theory
only needs to discover a rabbit fossil from pre-Cambrian rock.
That would do just fine. A few creationist frauds have been
claimed, but nothing to challenge science.
As to your second question, I recommend you (or better, your friend) spend some time reading "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent. Enjoy. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | Frances VALEY |
Comment: | Hello, I happened upon your site while in fact looking for the AiG website which I occasionally consult - yes, in spite of my higher education and fifty years of life experience on this earth, I am one of those loonies, a Biblical Christian. My reaction to your positions - well, if evolutionists are so sure of what they put forward as fact, why on earth should they fear counter-argument or opposing theories? A scientific approach surely welcomes anything which contests or counters a commonly held belief, as a kind of test. My impression is that anything or anyone who expresses the slightest reserve is just dismissed as "not credible" (or something stronger..). Also I find the tone of your articles (what I read) rather too cynical. Ridiculing or caricaturing an opposing argument doesn't seem too scientific an approach to me. But debate can be useful. |
Response | |
From: | |
Author of: | Dino Blood and the Young Earth |
Response: | Well, I see that
your comment is prompted from the No Answers in
Genesis web site created by John Stear. I think it is a good
site but it is quite different from the TalkOrigins
Archive, the site you are posting to now.
Happens all the time. Your rhetorical question, "... why on earth should they (scientists) fear counter-argument or opposing theories?" actually has an answer, "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" Science is based on observable, repeatable facts (some philosophers not withstanding), creationism is not. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I enjoyed John
Wilkin's review of the intersection of philosopy and science, but
I think his quick dismissal of Thomas Kuhn's idea of paradigm
shift needs to be corrected.
To suggest that "Even Galileo and Newton turned out to be revisionists rather than revolutionaries" is just wrong. In Ptolemaic astronomy, the stars and planets follow laws that actually contradict the the laws of Aristotelean physics for terrestrial objects. In that world view, Kepler's attempt to fit planetary orbits to Platonic solids is sensible, even if post-Newton it is metaphysical nonsense. "Paradigm shift" was slimed by being adopted by management consultants, but that doesn't mean that it's not a useful model. It might be useful to think of it as an historical model rather than a philosophical one. |
Response | |
From: | |
Author of: | Evolution and Philosophy |
Response: | After 8 years of
further study I continue to think that Kuhn's typology of the
process of scientific theory change is wrong. While it is true
that there is a subtle difference between a revisionary and a
revolutionary, this boils donw essentially to a question of how
deep the changes are and how raidly they change what was
previously held.
Both Galileo and Copernicus held to circular orbits because it was the doctrine of Aristotelian physics that celestial movement had to be circular. Neither revised the substance-form dualism of prior science. A scientific advance rarely changes everything, and the idea that Newton did this is simply propaganda. He certainly changed physics in a major way, but he didn't do it alone, and he relied upon (as he noted) prior work, which in turn relied upon prior work. Many of the changes in ideas, for example about inertia and so on dependend on work done by late medieval thinkers. History does not follow predetermined rules or stages. This view of history, which is itself derived from the father of positivism, Comte, presumes that there are innate tendencies for societies to change in standard ways, but in fact each social trajectory is unique. Human history is more like phylogeny than it is like ontogeny. Some of Kuhn's ideas about science are clearly correct (in particular the use of history by textbooks), and the social structure of science is garnering more study, in part because of him, although Robert Merton instituted this change in the thinking of science, not Kuhn. I recommend David Hull's view of science as a demic structure similar to Mendelian gene pools in evolution, and the subsequent view that science evolves like living things, through diversification, inclusive fitness, and selection. Hull, David L. 1988. Science as a process: an evolutionary account of the social and conceptual development of science. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | Hi Guys
Very intrigued by this 'big bang theory' I have questions: 1. Does the big bang disprove the cretion account conclusively? 2. What banged and where did it come from? 3. Why did it bang? |
Response | |
From: | |
Response: | You are in luck. We just added a Big Bang FAQ. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | Hi,
First of all, I just want to say how much I appreciate your site. I enjoy debating with creationists, and am interested how so many people can believe something so blindly. Anyway, your site has helped me quite a bit, so for that: Thank you. Now the reason I'm writing. I've been talking with some Fundamentalist Cristians, who believe the earth is only 6000 years old, and that the flood happened about 4000 years ago. The other day I was thinking how unlikely it is, that in just 4000 years, we went from a population of 8 to a population of 6-7 billion. I started thinking of a model to show how this is impossible, and this is the result: First i took 4000 years, divided it by 60 (general average age of humans through the last 4000 years; also a liberal number chosen to fit more generations in the model) that gives us 67 (66.67) generations in 4000 years. Second I've taken 2.5 as an average number of offspring per every pair of humans. That would mean every human that ever lived would "spawn" 1.25 more humans. (I also find this to be rather liberal) Now we start with 8 humans (4 pairs) 4000 years ago. These 4 pairs give 10 children (2.5 offspring on average). (we're assuming they will be the same number of men as women, just for the models sake) These 10 offspring, form 5 pairs, meaning 12 (rounded down) offspring. These 12 form 6 pairs giving 15 offspring. at the end we have a sequence as follows: 8, 10, 12, 15, 19....... (8,10, 13, 16, 20...... if you want to round up) with the following formula: 8*(1.25^(n-1)) After 67 generations (n=67), we get a population of 19,913,649. Not even close to 6-7 billion. Even assuming every human had 2.5 offspring, and never died (sum of all generations), we still would only have 99,568,212. Would you say this is a valid mathematical argument against a young earth? Or have I maybe miscalculated / made a false assumption? I would appreciate any answer I get. Thanks, Paul Huber |
Response | |
From: | Chris Stassen |
Author of: | Isochron Dating |
Response: | The problem with
the calculation is that the number that you've chosen for a
generation is too large. A generation is not the same as
lifespan: most 60-year-olds have lived to see their own
grandchildren, meaning that their life spans at least two
generations. Instead, a generation is the typical age at which
people reproduce, or the difference in age between parents and
their children. 25 years would be a better figure, and even that
might be a bit high for the past 4,000 years.
Using 25 years for a generation, there would be 160 generations in 4,000 years. In 160 generations, the equation would yield a population of 8×(1.25159), which is about 20 quadrillion (20,000,000,000,000,000). The current population of the Earth is well within reach by that measure. The creationists' beliefs on population through history have
some significant problems, but being unable to account for the
current population of the Earth is not one of them. Some problems
are discussed in our Index to Creationist Claims: |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | In the argument as to whether either Intelligent Design theory or Darwin's Origin of Species theory is the correct one, it would be interesting to know if evolution began after the single cell appeared, or whether the single cell itself had a history of evolution from something even more primitive. |
Responses | |
From: | |
Response: | Evolutionary processes would have certainly acted on early cellular life as they act on them today. You should find the writing of Carl Woese interesting, particularly his 2002 paper “On the evolution of Cells” (PNAS Vol. 99 13:8742-8747, June 25). |
From: | |
Response: | I would add that since evolution by natural selection is required to form any complex reproducing system, almost certainly the original cell was formed from selection on prior reproducing systems. Manfred Eigen proposed a mathematical model of how this could happen, which he called the Hypercycle. We cannot reconstruct the actual history of how this happened, but we can show that it could. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | Hi, I have a question. I heard a creationist deny the possibility of heavy elements being created in the Supernovae, because as they were created they would instantly have to be destroyed because of the conditions in the Supernova explosion. I didnt find this claim in your index so I was wondering if someone could comment on it. I suppose there's an obvious answer but my knowledge of cosmology is very limited. Thanks, Aca Mijalkovic |
Response | |
From: | |
Author of: | Dino Blood Redux |
Response: | The term for the topic you are seeking is Nucleosynthesis. This has been directly observed, for example you should consult the Chandra x-Ray Observatory web site. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | Thank You! Nice to have a voice of reason in a sea of creationist stupidity! Keep up the good work! Gordon |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | Since in general,
mankind nowadays treats its ills, feeds the hungry, adopts the
orphans, helps the homeless etc., in effect, isn't evolution for
the human species being halted? There is no more natural
selection taking place, and usually the ones we might consider
more "successful" (wealth, carizma, intellect) don't procreate as
much as "non-successful" (and please forgive me if this sounds
not politically-correct...)
Will we evolve? (This may have been brought up before, but I don't know where to look for comments on this.) |
Response | |
From: | |
Author of: | Evolution and Philosophy |
Response: | It is often
blithely claimed that humanity has stopped evolving. Medicine and
technology enable us to manipulate the environment so that we do
not have to adapt to it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
For a start, natural selection is not evolution. Very often
change comes about because selection is relaxed. But here I wish
to make a different point - we are under all kinds of selective
pressures all the time.
The claim that we are somehow controlling evolution, which in the end means only that a small proportion of the world's population is the beneficiary of modern medicine and things are likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future, just resolves to the claim that we have replaced one set of selective pressures (environmental) with another (social). Artificial selection is still selection, and we will continue to evolve under that regime as we had under "natural" selection. We have merely swapped environments, and the range of things to which we must evolve. It is entirely possible that there may be the beginnings of a speciation event if gene flow between the haves and have-nots were to be halted in the future, in some science fiction scenario. However, today is evolutionary enough. The most obvious selection pressures on most of the world's populations are disease-based. Bilharzia, leishmaniasis, cholera, and a host of other parasites and pathogens impose survival filters on humans. And humans impose similar filters on the diseases themselves. We drain swamps, overuse antibiotics and prepare vaccines. Epidemiology from a human perspective is evolution from a pathogen's perspective. Human gene frequencies reach equilibria to deal with diseases, and pathogen gene frequencies reach equilibria to deal with human behaviors. We are their environments, and they are ours. In a belt of tropical countries from Africa to South-East Asia, malaria is endemic. A form of anemia known as sickle-cell anemia, which is a genetic condition, is in equilibrium throughout Africa, where humans have lived for evolutionary durations. If both parents have the gene, the children have a one-in-four (Mendelian) possibility of having both copies, maternal and paternal, of the gene, and their red blood cells will fully become sickle-shaped, and lack the ability to carry oxygen, so the fetus or young neonate will die. But two out of four children will have, on average, only one copy of the gene, and their red blood cells will sickle just enough to prevent infection by the malaria parasite, so they will be immune to its effects. The remaining sickle-cell-anemia-free child will be normally susceptible to malaria, and may die or fail to prosper when infected. Even more radical is the evolution of diseases themselves. Most viruses that affect humans have been with us for hundreds of thousands of years, but a substantial number of new viruses "jump" the species barrier from our domestic animals or from wild species to us, usually through "vectors", or disease pathways such as mosquitoes. Most new forms of influenza epidemics, which kill millions, come to use this way. A family of viruses known as rotaviruses jump to us occasionally, for example from fruit bats. The Black Death that occasioned the Decameron of Boccacio was spread from rats to humans through fleas. Human Immunodeficiency Virus jumped to us, possibly through the eating of monkeys and apes in Central Africa, from a family of viruses endemic to monkeys and apes known now as Simian Immunodeficiency Viruses, unsurprisingly as we are simians ourselves. There is a continual war between hosts and diseases for control of the cellular resources of our bodies. Our defenses are our immune systems, and there is thus selection for advantageous systems in humans all the time. Medicine merely changes the selective values in this war, but it does not remove the war itself. Even the eradication of smallpox and the near eradication of other killers such as tuberculosis (which is making a comeback) is still, from the pathogen's perspective, evolution in the form of an environmental catastrophe. Diseases evolve in response to our behaviors. Paul Ewald has shown that contrary to received wisdom, long-standing diseases do not necessarily evolve towards lower virulence, or to beneficial symbiosis. It depends very much on how the disease is spread. One that infects its host, spreads easily, and is able to mutate rapidly will actually evolve towards virulence, because it is competing with itself rather than the host's defenses. Influenza can do this, because it causes its hosts to cough and sneeze. We help it along by recirculating air through building airconditioning, in crowded cities. But diseases that need their host to stay alive longer so it can mature or multiply enough to improve its chances of spreading will become more benign. One of the best things we can do to force diseases to become benign is to wash our hands and cover our mouths when we sneeze, and to generally improve hygiene. Immunization, when it is available, reduces the size of the population of pathogens and thereby lowers the probability of malign mutants arising. It also pits the much faster evolutionary rate of the immune system, which according to Burnet's Clonal Selection Theory randomly generates antibody cells and "breeds" from those that are successful in tagging infected cells and pathogens, against the evolutionary rate of the pathogens. Some viruses - for example HIV - mutate faster than the immune system, but to do this they must not kill the host before it has infected another (otherwise they would quickly become extinct). Again, the best population-wide defense against HIV is to force the virus to keep its hosts alive longer selecting in favor of benign strains. It is for this reason hygiene, in this case the use of condoms, sterile needles and screened blood donations, is so important from an evolutionary perspective as well as a medical perspective. Without taking an evolutionary approach to disease, we risk encouraging epidemics, to the detriment of our children. People often justify things like eugenics because it is claimed that we otherwise have stopped evolving, but in terms of adaptation, we must always adapt or go extinct. There is never not an environment in which we live, and this will continue to affect our genetic constitution. |
Feedback Letter | |
From: | |
Comment: | I have read many claims made that flood stories from all over the world are proof of a global flood. The rebuttles to these claims seem to be missing a key point. How did the flood stories originate? Did they just fall out of the sky? No! All these flood stories came from people living in various places around the world. This tells us that they survived the flood they described. It really amazes me that so many people do not see the obvious. If there were survivors all over the world, then the accounts given in the Bible are simply wrong, as the Bible claims all life outside the Ark perished. |