The Talk.Origins Archive Post of the Month: December 2009

Subject:    | A new post for evolution vs creation
Date:       | 02 Dec 2009
Message-ID: | 94becc64-8978-46e2-95b1-11825c529062@u1g2000pre.googlegroups.com

> I only see conjecture which is fine where a person looks to speculate his
> imagination or his faith.

> Lu 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in
> the imagination of their hearts. However, I am seeking the truth ...

No you're not, George, or you would have replied to at least *one* of our posts in the other threads you started.

What you are doing - and we *all* know it - is Lying For Jesus. I'm hip to it. When I was an itty-bitty Baptist and born-again christian, I used to do it, too.

> ... and it will not do to speculate the imagination and say it is the truth
> until a better speculation arises when we are looking for the truth!

You would be well advised to be less interested in "truth" and more interested in "fact."

"Truth" is information with a psychological component. Everybody is selling their rap as "truth." You. The Scientologists. The Muslims. The Mormons. The Raelians. And there are many, many more.

*Fact*, on the other hand, is straightforward: it is a unit of knowledge that is subject to verification for accuracy. It is a *fact* that life forms on earth evolve, just like it is a *fact* that the earth orbits the sun and it is a *fact* that gravity makes stuff fall down instead of up.

> Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. The
> biggest problem that I have with evolution and most evolutionists is the great
> lack of moral integrity regarding fact and opinion.

Funny you should mention it, but it was the *utter* lack of moral integrity that first drove me away from (in order):
--> the Baptist church
--> Fundamentalism
--> Christianity in general
--> all organized religion.

And once I got to that point, it was simple to ask the question, "What evidence is there that *any* god exists?" Answer: "None at all."

So what is it you think "evolutionists" (a pejorative term, by the way) are doing or saying that demonstrates their/our lack of moral integrity?

And yet you are bearing false witness against us right now, by not reading and responding to the answers we gave you, point-by-point, in the first couple of posts. You, sir, are a hypocrite of the First Water.

> But, then if evolutionists have reject the holiness and integrity of God who
> must be required to be moral or ethical?

It's like this, George: Do you have *any* objective, verifiable evidence - and bible verses do *not* count - that any god exists? If so, please post it here:

Humans are not moral and ethical because they think a God is watching them. (Well, okay, there are some people like that, but I try to stay as far away from them as I possibly can because they're psychopaths.) Humans have a tendency to behave morally because we are social animals, and having and adhering to a social code makes living in a big group safer and more pleasant, and contributes to the survival of the gene pool. Other social animals have rudimentary moral codes, including gorillas, chimps, bonobos, and wolves. I'm sure there are more; those are just the ones I can name off the top of my head.

> It is not ethical to give a theory, opinion, or imagination and to present it
> as a fact, or imply it as a fact.

Evolution *is* a fact. It has been observed in the wild and in the laboratory. It is going on around you every single day.

Well George, those words were written in a simpler time. Now we have a better way of knowing: it's called *science*. I do not believe something someone tells me unless s/he has evidence to back up her/his claim. During bible times, everyone believed in magic and the supernatural, so if someone claimed that he talked to a god, folks tended to believe him.

> As a Christian I admit that I live by faith because I do not have all the
> facts! Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to
> faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Did you know that it is
> the Bible revelation that is honest and ethical about this truth of origins!

No, the bible was written by goat herders during the Bronze and Iron Ages, when all humans (pretty much) believed in magic and the supernatural.

Genesis is *metaphor*. It is not factual, however much you think that it's *true*.

> Ec 3:11 He hath made everything beautiful in his time: also he hath set the
> world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh
> from the beginning to the end. The truth is that we do not know factually how
> creation occurred nor how it sustained itself, all we have is our revelations
> and the faith we place in them. For the evolutionist it is the conjecture
> or theory or opinion ...

"Conjecture" in science is called an "hypothesis." When a scientist has a conjecture/hypothesis, s/he devises a way to test it. Then s/he publishes the results of the test, so that other scientists can do the test themselves. The facts they gather about the hypothesis by this method are called "data."

A "theory" does NOT mean "a wild guess" in science. It means "a systematic explanation of a phenomenon that accounts for all the known data."

And opinions? Opinions are like belly buttons, George: everybody has 'em. However, in *science*, your opinion doesn't mean squat unless you can back it up with *data*.

And we have *data* to back up evolution, George. *Mountains* of it. From quite a few different scientific disciplines.

> ... of a part of the scientific community, for me as a Christian it is the
> revelation of scriptures.

Well, that's very Bronze Age of you, George. But here in the 21st Century, we tend not to put too much stock into revealed knowledge if it contradicts the data.

Have you ever thought about the problem that revealed knowledge presents? I'll tell you what it is: *anybody* can claim that a god is revealing knowledge to her/him. And if you believe that supernatural beings ("gods") exist and that they communicate with humans, then there's no way you can tell whether this new revelation is "from God" or just an active case of schizophrenia.

That's why science trumps revelation, George: every single time, hands-down and walkin' away.

> What we a left with at this time is a preponderance of the evidence and not a
> conviction do to fact beyond a reasonable doubt.

And the preponderance of evidence supports evolution, George. Sorry about that. Why don't you read the talk.origins archive and find out what our evidence really is?

By the way: I've read the bible, cover-to-cover, several times, lest you make the mistake of thinking that I come to my present position out of ignorance.

> Lu 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall
> find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Yes often both sides are
> disingenuous when they claim to have the complete truth unless they honestly
> state that they have it by faith! Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of
> things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Thank you: I was about to quote Hebrews 11:1 to *you*. Here's another way of saying the same thing that Hebrews 11:1 says: "Faith is believin' what you know ain't so." That's a quote from Mark Twain.

> Much criticism has been placed on the scriptures for light being in existence
> before the sun can you as educated scientist explain this scriptural dilemma
> for me as I suppose this is one of the many reasons men reject the revelation
> of scripture when I believe that the scriptures are the revelation of true
> science! Ge 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. What
> does this reveal about the physics of light? Ge 1:16 And God made two great
> lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the
> night: he made the stars also. Ge 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of
> the heaven to give light upon the earth, Ge 1:18 And to rule over the day and
> over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it
> was good. Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
> thebibilicalview.com

If the Genesis myth resonates for you, George, that's fine. For you, it's true - although it is *NOT FACTUAL*.

What you need to realize is that what resonates for *us* is the grandeur and beauty of the natural world that has evolved. Nothing in your book of Middle Eastern mythology can come anywhere close to how stupendous the natural world really is. I came to understand this when I ceased being a christian. Instead of spending my days longing for heaven and singing "This world is not my home/I'm just a-passin' through/If heaven's not my home/then Lord, what will I do?/The angels beckon me/from heaven's open door/and I can't feel at home in this world anymore," I could walk my beloved Sonoran Desert and know that I was kin to every tree, every bee, every snake, every hawk, every bobcat. It is a deep and profound joy to know that I am *where I belong.*

You know that song I quoted, George? That sums it up for me. People waiting to die so they can go "home," all the while blind and ignorant to the factual marvels around them on earth.

Now kindly start replying to people who post answers to your messages, okay? It's the honorable thing to do.

Two Seekers of Truth

Post of the Month: December 2009